When Insight Is Not Enough To Change

You can understand your anxiety perfectly and still feel like nothing changes. That “stuck in therapy” feeling often shows up in the most introspective people, the ones who can name the trigger, explain the childhood pattern, and describe their coping skills in detail, yet still repeat the same reactions in real time. We unpack why insight alone can keep you spinning, and how the missing link is often the body’s ability to actually feel and tolerate what is happening. 

Therapist Madison Reed joins me to explore what separates reflection from regulation. We talk about why coping skills sometimes backfire when the goal is to get rid of discomfort fast, and how that intention can turn skills into avoidance. We also dig into helplessness, the emotion that pushes so many of us into control mode, and we contrast two common stuck styles: the internalizer who tries to fix everything through analysis and the externalizer who wants the solution to live in other people’s behavior. 

From brainspotting to simple daily check-ins, we share practical ways to build emotional tolerance and create real integration between thoughts and feelings. If you have ever felt frustrated that therapy “should” be working by now, this conversation offers a grounded path forward with nervous system language, relationship patterns, and realistic next steps. Subscribe, share this with a friend who feels stuck, and leave a review with the biggest insight you are taking into your week.

Thank you for tuning into And Still WE Rise! If you would like to learn more about me or the work our practice is doing, feel free to follow us on Instagram at:

@atltherapygirl and @risetherapycenter

Or check us out at www.risetherapycenter.com

Disclaimer: And Still We Rise is meant to provide perspective and meaningful conversations around mental health topics. It is not meant to provide specific therapeutic advise to individuals. If anything in these podcasts resonates, ASWR recommends consulting with your individual therapist or seeking a referral from your primary care physician.

Transcript

Why Some Clients Feel Stuck

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to Until we rise. I'm your host, Christine Seidel, and today we have returning guest, therapist Madison Reid. Welcome, Madison. Thanks for joining us. Madison has been with us before to kind of talk about performance-based anxiety. That's a little bit of like an indoor identity. That's kind of her wheelhouse, is what she's really kind of known for. So I thought you would be an awesome therapist to really kind of talk about today's subject, which is clients who find themselves constantly stuck in therapy. Maybe they have insight into what's kind of going on with them, but they're saying therapy is not working, they're stuck. So I thought you'd be the perfect guest for that today. So welcome back. I'll kind of put your bio in our show notes, but tell us a little bit about stuck clients.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

So I have found a lot of people coming into me saying, hey, I'm stuck, I've got nothing that I've been able to do. And they tend to be the people that are the most introspective, that can think through a problem better than anybody. Yeah. But really they're the ones that don't quite know what it is to just feel rather than to think into feeling.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

And so a lot of times like they they know what their problem is, they know why it's there, they know their childhood wounds, all of those things, but it's still not creating any new behaviors or new actions that they're wanting in their life.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Yeah. And I have to say, like, that is like a big piece of stuck clients, is like they they really have a lot of knowledge. Like they know, I know I'm anxious, I know I have this type of relationship with a parent, I know this is my pattern that I find myself in, and yet I haven't been able to fix this, or I've tried all these coping skills. Coping skills is another big thing, you know. I've tried all these coping skills, and either my anxiety hasn't gotten better or my relationships, you know, I keep finding the same thing. So what's kind of going on there where the over the overthinking or the overanalyzing is separate from the feeling?

Insight Without Behavior Change

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Tell me more about that.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Yes, so a lot of times it is I react in a certain way, whether it's anxious or angry, whatever that is, and they're able to be like, oh, this is why. This is because this is what my dad did to me, or because this is my trigger. And they're using it as a tool to understand themselves rather than as a tool to actually cope, right? And that requires this ability to feel what you're feeling, right? Like, oh, I'm starting to feel anxious. I know what this is, and now I know how to cope through it. Um, rather they're using it as like a reflection for what just happened, and it's that's where that behavior is not being modified because you're still allowing the feeling to control the behavior and then providing the knowledge rather than reversing that order a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

So, are you kind of saying like, yes, there may be like this like knowledge of like I know where this all comes from, but in that moment that they're experiencing it, they're still going back to like an old pattern. Yes. So there's not this pause or this space where they're taking it to a deeper level and being able to sit with it longer to make a different choice. Yeah. Okay.

Why Coping Skills Can Fail

SPEAKER_00 3:15

So then why don't like coping skills really work with these clients? Like they actually will come in and say, like, listen, I have literally learned every five, four, three, two, one, that's our favorite. Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, I I've tried all these coping skills and nothing has really helped me navigate to a different behavior. Like, I can see myself get angry. I can see when I respond in this way, like, I don't like it. Like, I genuinely don't like the way I feel about myself. Like, what why is it that coping skills sometimes, you know, when a therapist focuses on that exclusively, they don't make progress.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Yeah, a lot of times it's actually not the skills that are the problem, but the intention that they're using them for. Where they're using it as like, oh, I don't want to feel this way, let's get rid of it. Whereas the problem here really is they need more tolerance and being able to sit with the feeling. That coping skill of how can I sit in this, understand what it is, and let my body move through it, rather than trying to fix and cope out of it.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Yeah, yeah. I I love there's this saying that like integration is really where the body no longer resists to things being true, right? Like I can understand that this is where this comes from, and I can choose to do something different, and the body doesn't resist that. And I think for a lot of people who are stuck, they have that physiological body feeling response and and they resist it. They're like, like you said, how do I get out of this as quickly as possible? And that's really bypassing what is needing to be understood. So, you know, are all clients stuck and like really wanting to fix that? Because there, I I hear a lot of clients saying, like, how do I fix it? What do I do? How do I fix it? What do I do? And even when I'll give like you know, suggestions

Helplessness And The Need To Fix

SPEAKER_00 5:08

in the work around getting to a place of like space within themselves, they'll resist it. They're like, Nope, nope, I don't, yeah, like tell me something else to do. I don't want to meditate or I don't want, I don't want to stay with that feeling a little bit longer. So, what is that about?

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Yeah, I talk about this all the time where I don't feel like all feelings are created equally because there are ones that are a little bit more powerful than other ones. Yeah, and that's where I think helplessness comes in a lot with this is I think very few people actually know how to cope with helplessness, and intellectualize or introspective people are the worst of that.

unknown 5:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

I'm speaking a little bit from experience, work my own therapist honestly. Yes, yes, honest, yes, right? It's this idea that like helplessness is a feeling in itself, but that naturally creates that behavior of like, okay, what can I do to fix it and to not feel that, rather than just like creating the tolerance around like this is actually something I can't control.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

And it just constantly puts these people in this cycle of like, what do I do? How can I fix this? And rather than just like taking the space to acknowledge it, that's going to be the help that it needs, right? Like it's going into the storm to get out of it. Yeah. And of course, that's a very uncomfortable thing, and nobody likes to be uncomfortable in that way. And that's building that window of tolerance in that out-of-control helplessness feeling.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Yeah, and I think that you know, that's just something that's another layer for us to examine. Like when somebody is is really coming to therapy and they're like, I'm stuck, and yet that which will get them unstuck that are resisting, that's where I see a lot of like internalizers who are like, okay, but like, so let me go back in and see what else I can do to fix myself, let me figure it out. Like, you know, what can I do from this overanalyzing perspective?

Internalizers Versus Externalizers

SPEAKER_00 6:55

And or sometimes we get these stuck externalizers who are so aware of their trigger, they're aware of their trauma, they know where this comes from, but they they want somebody else, they want to other the solution, right? Like, well, if this triggers me, then my partner should know that and do this. You know, and so they're looking for this external resolution to the problem versus really sitting, like you said, with the feeling and the insight and allowing that space of integration, like, you know, what is coming up in that resistance? And that's you know, internalizers who are stuck want to stay in like overanalyzing and overthinking it and like knowing everything it needs to know about the trigger and trauma, and like what do I do to fix that? And the externalizer is like, how do I get others to kind of be responsible for the knowing of my of my trigger and my trauma? Sure. So and it serves them, right? There's a level of identity that we get in that stuckness that is serving us as an individual.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Yeah. And I think that's where a lot of those people that whether you're introspective and that's kind of how you got to the point of therapy or an externalizer and keep getting frustrated because it's like, why would they just not do this? Because this is what I need, right? I think two things come into play. One, you're giving up your biggest tool of control, which is you. Yeah, you're your only thing that you can control in this world, and you're willingly saying, Yeah, I'll just let you handle that. Yeah. Rather than building this tool and strengthening it. Um, and with that kind of comes, and I am losing my train of thought. That's okay. Think about it again. Um, I just get so fashioned, I get so excited. But I think that's where a lot of people also realize that like they've found a lot of success in this tool. They a lot of times it's not until college age and or later that they hit this wall of like, I'm not fulfilled, something is wrong. Yeah, and it's because it's a high reward skill to be able to think yourself out of a feeling, but you're just kind of like swiping this emotional credit card and it's time to pay your due. Like, yeah, and there's you hit that wall and you no longer can cope with all the years of feelings, yeah, and that skill's gonna fail you because it's a body situation that has to

The Cost Of Thinking Away Feelings

SPEAKER_01 9:09

occur.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Yeah, and I think that like we want to normalize this a little bit. Like, I think most people are going to find themselves stuck in this way and at some point in their life, right? Because we are conditioned culturally to constantly be overanalyzing, over-intellectualizing, like fixing things, solving things, figuring things out. You know, if we look at, you know, like the educational academic system, it's all about facilitating a solution, right? So when we do find ourselves stuck with something that we cannot control, right? Like we have tried to figure it out, we've tried to facilitate some change, and we are not really in control in a way that is healthy for us. We're trying trying to control others, we're trying to bypass something within ourselves, that it's we have to come to this like term and this existential like reality of, oh, it I was never meant to just be in this doing, fixing, figuring out mode. That's actually a very isolating place to be when I get stuck, you know, because there's really no solution I can get to when I'm in that over, you know, intellectualizing, overthinking state. It blocks me from a very important part of myself, which is my body, where my feelings kind of reside. So, can you tell us a little bit of what happens when we come to a place of allowing our feelings to have a place to integrate with our thinking and our

Letting Feelings Move Through You

SPEAKER_00 10:43

insight?

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Yeah, I would say it's a rough process to get there, to be honest, right? Because ultimately it requires somebody coping with years, sometimes like decades, of feelings that they've never really dealt with. Yeah. And so I think that's where it gets really intimidating and scary, is because when you let your body just feel it, it's gonna be all your feelings are like, yay, it's time to shut up. Coming out, when really at the end of the day, it was just road range, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:08

You're just feeling frustration.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Yeah. Um, but over time, that's where the feelings that you're experiencing can just be situational. It is I'm feeling angry about somebody, I feel frustrated, my body moves through and I move on without flipping the bird and honking my horn, right? And over time, that's where you get more control because you trust your feelings to come and go as they're ready to go.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Rather than what you think is best for you.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Yeah. I love that you said you trust that your feelings are gonna come and go as they are ready to come and go. And I think that's something in therapy we really honor with our clients is that we know the feelings are gonna come up as they are ready. You know, we don't worry about like, you know, them being in session and this huge trauma that they're not really ready to process comes up. We really do know that they are their subconscious will allow things to come up as it's ready. And it could be something situational, right? Like road rage. That you're like, you know, why, why do I get so angry about this? And when you actually start allowing that space, you realize, oh, there's different layers to this anger, there's different layers to this rage that as we allow them to come up when they're ready, it's safe for that to come up, right? So it's it's such a yeah, I mean, it's like it's it's rough work at times, right? Because things will come up, but it's safe enough for them to come up. You know, we we have to trust ourselves, our our our own feelings will reveal themselves, and also like the space that we're going to with a therapist to be able to hold a container for those feelings. Um, can you speak a

Brainspotting And Somatic Integration

SPEAKER_00 12:43

little bit to that? Because I know you do brain spotting, which is an excellent way to start doing some of this work. I do hypnotherapy and ketamine assistant therapy, which allows the regression of feelings, right? Like going to the next thing and then the next thing what's coming up. How does that really help people who are stuck? So, you know, people who are like, I don't know, nothing's gonna help me, like I know all these things. How does something like brain spotting really integrate the feelings part of it?

SPEAKER_01 13:11

So I in my spiel when people come to brain spotting, I always say, we're going to try to create comfortability around being uncomfortable. And so much of like growth is in being uncomfortable, and you have to figure out a way to sit in that to to create the light that you want. And that's where brain spotting becomes a great tool, is because a lot of times people come with all this content. We're like, I can tell you everything that happened to me and be completely fine. I'm like, but how do you feel? Like, let's pull this back. And that's where brain spotting is a great bridge, is because a lot of people don't have that skill, they don't even know what it is to just feel without thinking and feeling. And brain spotting uses ultimately our body as a way to integrate the thoughts that we've been having and the feelings that we've neglected and putting them back together through letting your body kind of go through it. It doesn't require talking, it's just you sitting in that and having a therapist there that is safe and with a regulated nervous system to kind of channel off of so it doesn't kind of blow through this comfortability window that we have established.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Yeah. And I think that, like, you know, coming from like a very inner child perspective, I think that like is a form of reparenting ourselves, right? Like to really come with an understanding and like of this inside of maybe something we've gone through, and then you know, have been able to access the feelings and as a therapist, hold them with some compassion that they can have the feeling that is valid for what they experience without any consequences or punishment, and that they can they can hold it, and the therapist can hold it with them until they're ready to release it. And there's like a level of agency and autonomy that they have in that moment that maybe they didn't have in years past or in relationships that kind of condition this level of response. And so I think that is such a huge piece of this work is is the space, right? The space that you come to, the modality you use. And I I think for a lot of therapists who maybe are newer or not as experienced, they jump so quick in with their therapy with their clients to try and fix things, you know, to try and figure out okay, what coping skill, what do we need to do? What you know, what's the next step that has to be done? And I think in a lot of the you know, therapists that have more experience, they recognize how that pushing is actually maybe creating a little bit more stuckness. Yeah. So what have you found as a therapist to be, you know, most supportive for your clients that come in saying they're

Therapist Stance That Breaks Stuckness

SPEAKER_00 15:42

stuck?

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Yes, I actually think it's a little bit more of this confrontational style, right? Again, they've been really rewarded for the system and they need some reflection. Like, actually, here's how this is not serving you.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

And a lot of times that is just being like, Can we pause right here for a second? Um, I asked, how do you feel about this? And you jumped into content. Right. Can we try this again? And even if you jump into content, I'm gonna pull you back down to the bearing. And even in just the talk therapy aspect, trying to integrate those two. Um, and I think that's where it requires a lot of that rapport, it's because they've been trained that they can talk about it, and it's also a lot of times their trauma story that they want to just say, but that's not healing work, that's what's going to keep them in their comfort zone. Um, and I think that's kind of the biggest tool, as well as like any of your basic um like the how we feel app. I just shove it in people's lives all the time where it's just like that mindfulness in every day. It doesn't even have to be in this high escalation moment, but like, how do I just check in with my body and how am I feeling right now? Yes. Um, and the how we feel app is really great. I don't know how much you guys are familiar with it, but it can send you a notification, you can check in on your feelings. But my favorite feature of it is it gives you like where are you feeling this in your body, and you can literally down to your like pinky fingernails say, This is where I'm feeling it, and here's how intense it is. Um, and so it's a great tool to kind of like slow down, and that's a great way for clients to still be engaged in the therapeutic process, even when they're out. Um those are my two big ones.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

So I love that, and we'll put a link to the app in our bio because I think that's just it's a great reminder to, like you said, slow down and just sink a little bit more into your body. I think even you know, clients coming into the therapeutic space, right? Like as clinicians, letting them check in with their body before even starting session, you know, like what are we feeling in this moment, or how are we feeling in this day, you know, because you said something interesting, you know, people telling their trauma story, and as a clinician, you've probably seen where they tell their story, and yet they, you know, might even have a very traumatic, you know, expression of like what they went through, but no affect change, right? Like, so they become somewhat disassociative from what they actually experienced, you know. So I think that's a really important thing as a clinician to do that kind of confronting of bringing them back to something that they shared and see if they can actually access that in their body. Um, so I I I love just the the compassionate like care of even confronting something and like inquiring a little bit more around what that was, right? What that shift was, what that statement was, how they experienced it, how it feels in their body. But it does have to be a therapist who's attuned, right? And when you get that, how to be in that versus what to do with it, right? Because so much of this is you know, getting our clients unstuck is not us really doing anything other than being able to hold that for them when they are struggling to hold that for themselves.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Yeah, and I think that's where again, like I think a lot of new therapists fall into that trap, is because a client requires the safety to just express and it not turn into fixing. Because as soon as you go into that, well, here's this coping skill, that's mirroring what they already do in their everyday, and that's actually what's gonna make them feel like this isn't working rather than just like you being the person that holds it for them, and they can channel onto your nervous system, all of those things like that's gonna be foreign, and that's what we're looking for because that's gonna create a little bit of that uncomfortability that's gonna help the new system to develop.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Yeah, and I think that like as a profession, I mean, I know there's a lot of listeners or viewers that are you know lay people, so to speak, but there are some clinicians.

Daily Body Check-Ins And Closing

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Um, but I think it's good for both you know clients and clinicians to really start recognizing like as we step into a space within this work, like we need modalities that actually get clients unstuck sooner and quicker so that you know they can actually afford the care, right? Because we all know therapy is not cheap, it's not covered by a lot of insurance companies. So the more we can do work from this informed place, you know, the sooner our clients are becoming unstuck and gaining a lot more integration in their life and they're able to take that medicine kind of out into the world. So I highly recommend any clients or clinicians who are listening to this to really check into some of those modalities. Madison and I are actually doing some trainings on accessing more of that implicit state of our nervous system, which is where we hold the memories and the feelings and all the things where where things are integrated. Um so I highly recommend you know that uh course, which we'll put a link as soon as it's um live. But I think it's a great way to start doing this work in a way that clients can see progress a little bit sooner and quicker because we we need, you know, we need the healing work done in this in this world. So um anything else you feel like would be helpful for clients or our listeners to hear?

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Yeah, I think it's just kind of for everybody to just remember that like I think we view thoughts as being separate from our body, but at the end of the day, like our body is the host for those thoughts. Yeah, and making sure you're taking care of that because it's the one that's taking really the brunt of it, right? I think stress is the feeling that we talk about a lot. Like a lot of people acknowledge stress has an effect on your body. Yeah. Why are we not viewing other feelings as also having that effect of our body? And remembering that I think is what can allow the intellectualizers to be like, this makes sense to feel through it, right? If you need that little validation, there you go. Yeah. Um, I think that's my biggest thing.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Yeah, just like if I were to realize I was hungry or I was realized I was thirsty or needed rest, I would attune to that and provide for it. It's the same thing that if I have these feelings in my body, they're really there to help guide me into what I need. And so, yes, like if I were going to give you know thirst and hunger a response, I can give care to those other feelings. So that's a great point. Well, as always, I appreciate you being here with us today. Madison is just, you know, she's just such a great therapist when it comes to getting to those deeper, more rooted belief systems that are kind of sabotaging the progress we're trying to make, right? Like if we get stuck, we're really trying. She really helps you to do that work in a way that's not so hard on you. Yeah. So thanks for joining us, Madison. If you guys would like to watch another one of her videos, there'll be a link. Please like, subscribe, and follow. We always appreciate all of your feedback. Until next time, we'll see you. See ya.